Topic-icon Provinces! Who needs em?

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13 years 1 month ago #187488 by tessie
Clearly not the new government!

Heard on the news that the government will be proposing an abolishment of provinces...phasing them out starting in 2010.

Why oh why I ask you? well word has it the main reason is to speed up service delivery....mmmm....decrease the levels of delegation increase the amount of work done:dry: Im not seeing the logic....what am I missing?

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13 years 1 month ago #187493 by Zebulonguy
perhaps its too nullify GodZilles victory in the Cape???

just food for thought :P

Or JZ wants more control,and paying provincial councils cost too much money that he can use to entertain his cronies and family???another possibility.

On a positive note it would give the govt more control and raise service to a national standard which will have to be good.

BUT LIKE YOU I AM STILL SCEPTICAL.

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13 years 1 month ago #187494 by $Force
^Sources please.
I find the mere thought of such a statement to be filled with frivolity, as such a move would at least need a re-write of the parts of the constitution.
The ANC would definitely not be able to do that on its own as they do not have a two thirds majority to change the constitution.
Also no opposition party would favour it, not even the minor ones.
Some of them have stronger bases in certain provinces and they would not collude with the ANC in a move that could decrease their little bit of a foothold they have in government.

As far as I know, the ANC might possibly have discussed this on the side at Polokwane but there was definitely no concrete resolutions on it.
If the ANC were to have the ability to change the constitution and the political landscape so dramatically (which they don't), they would probably see a mass exodus of voters to the DA and Cope who would both naturally be opposed to such changes.

Frivolous I say.

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13 years 1 month ago #187496 by Zebulonguy
But do they have enough power to change the constituition???

That should prove to be intresting. :unsure:

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13 years 1 month ago #187503 by ezy
In my opinion, the ANC is testing the waters, a common practise by them, to guage the mood of political parties and organisations, whenever they come up with a new flight of fantasy.
I wouldnt just brush this stupid idea to the side and say that the ANC do not have the will to change the constitution, to consolidate their grip on power in this country.
They have already changed the demarcation of provinces in the past, to include or exclude certain areas in this very endeavor.

Zuma has made it clear, 'the ANC intends to stay in power till Jesus comes'...An reitteration of a sentiment by previous ANC adminestrations.
Now they have already lost the Western Cape.

This new wet-dream, of a country without provinces is nothing more than a move to impotise any opposition, and make sure that the ANC wins back which it has lost, due to their blatant disregard of colored people, and their sentiments that colored people dont matter, and their vote dont count.

eeZy

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13 years 1 month ago #187536 by $Force
No Zebs, they do not have the power to legally change the constitution.

I would really like to know where this "news" emanates from and who in the ANC made the statement. Maybe I am reading the wrong newspapers and watching the wrong news channels.
I don't think we should all get caught up in something that might just be a frivolous statement by someone the likes of Malema or any other idiot who purports to be speaking on behalf of the ANC.

Ezy, with opposition politics growing at a rate in this country that would soon bring it to the percentage levels of many Western countries, the ANC can ill-afford the ramifications of such a move.
Forcing a constitutional change without a parliamentary majority is definitely not on the cards.

I do believe that there are definitely a few elements within the ANC that would like to see the abolition of provinces, but that in itself does not make it a policy or policy statement.
It is highly unlikely that this will happen as there are way too many people within the ANC who genuinely have the country's long-term interests at heart.

There might be an attempt to change demarcations but the last time that happened it resulted in really nasty riots, a constitutional court case and an eventual reversal of the decision.

Once again I say this is all frivolous speculation.

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13 years 1 month ago #187537 by Papish
@FORCE

Why do they portray such information in the news and newspapers. Is it just to stir up controversy or what? They would not make such comments without discussing it first unless someone just blabbered it out for the sake of.

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13 years 1 month ago #187564 by $Force
@Papish

The last time it was mentioned and discussed seriously was around Sept 2006 and around then it would have been easier for the ANC to implement any constitutional changes since at the time they had the parliamentary power with 69.69% of the seats.
In fact, this has been a policy debate within the ANC as early as 2000/2001

All I am asking is that someone, anyone on here tell myself and the rest of the members in what most recent newspaper articles or online articles we can read or view any latest discussions or even listen to podcasts of the radio show, so that we can have a proper perspective, instead of speculating about something which the ANC would maybe want to implement but technically can't, yet when they technically could, they did not.

My point is that this issue has been discussed since the days of Mbeki's first term, yet no-one took notice of it. The ANC in Mbeki's second term had the ability to chop and change the constitution but they did not.

So even if someone high up within the ANC says something to the effect that provinces "should" be abolished, it will be technically impossible for them to unilaterally implement it. They would need at least COPE or the DA to agree with them or a combination of all the smaller parties. All very highly unlikely scenarios.

Did anybody even care to read what I said about the mass exodus it will cause from the ANC to the DA or COPE?
You think that those people in provincial structures are going to readily accept that they will be re-deployed from the well paying, career-building jobs they've just been given?

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13 years 1 month ago #187569 by Papish
Now it is making more sense to me thanks Force. Im glad to know that they wont be able to implement it because if they do it will just be for their own benefit and power.


Where can we read about this mass exodus?

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13 years 1 month ago #187570 by Gemini_01
I have only read tessies comment (lack of time)....

I am with you on this Tess, there would still be the same amount of people in the country, there would still be the same amount of problems. Right? I am not understanding this too leka...

Will be back later to read all comments, and maybe get a better understand... :unsure:

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13 years 1 month ago #187587 by tessie
Sorry for the late post...

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=134018&sn=Detail

@ force, yes it would require a constitutional change and no, I dont think this is frivolous in the least...I think they could very well present it by next year to parliment...it would take the twisting of one or two political arms...like the FFP maybe (wink wink), but I think they will try it.

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13 years 1 month ago #187591 by Papish
Hectic stuff

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13 years 1 month ago - 13 years 1 month ago #187593 by !one/\stitch!
Methinks that we should have the debate and back up the pros and cons with facts and models. The fact of the matter is that the 3 spheres of governmnet are not really working or being effective(and do not look at only the major urban centres). The idea has indeed been touted in the past. If it has been decided already then there is a problem. Like this elusive Naional Health Insurane.

It is all about centralising power...if it is true...maybe it is just a Malemaisque statement to give Zille a stroke!
Last Edit: 13 years 1 month ago by !one/\stitch!.

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13 years 1 month ago #187594 by $Force
@Papish
The mass exodus is something I alluded to in my first reply based on what happened in Khutsong and not so sure, but I think it was Merafong and some other towns regarding demarcations.
The Mass Exodus is only an opinion based on recent political history and even that what is mentioned in reports like the one in the link I gave in my previous post.
In my second post I spoke of provincial demarcations that ended up in riots, constitutional court cases and the defections of councilors.
Now imagine this on a substantially larger scale coming from supporters who are not happy with being incorporated into other provinces, or supporters not happy with the province system we eventually end up with.

The ANC stands way too much to lose if they do not engage all the political parties in this idea....
That is if they even going to seriously consider it.

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13 years 1 month ago #187596 by Papish
Thanks Force

Chusty bra this has been going on since 1992/1994 already, how come i never heard of it once.

Ive just read Zille comments too and it looks like the ANC doesnt stand a chance of actually implementing this removal of provinces.

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13 years 1 month ago #187599 by !one/\stitch!

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13 years 1 month ago #187601 by $Force
Thanx Tessie :)
I'm placing my bet that it won't end up nearly as dramatic as it seems now.

All bills start off as really extreme versions of the eventual act that gets passed.

The Mulders will be faced with a little revolution of their own, should they support any of this, as they are still nursing the grazed knees they got from kneeling at the Zuma altar.

The DA, COPE and the ID all reflect policies that do not want to give central government too much power.
The IFP, having all but a little bit of support in two or three provinces, with them always being in with a chance in KZN, would not want to be wholy swallowed by the ANC. At least not for the next few years to come.
Kenneth Meshoe is not gonna make a difference but he would probably have the ACDP policies on provinces aligned with that of the two main opposition parties.

I would dare to say that any party that colludes with the ANC on this will not exist after 2014.

BTW
godZille should just reign in her horses for a while until she gets the ANC NEC and Zuma to make clear statements about this before she ends up getting a stroke.
Then she should start attacking the supposed merits of the proposed policy, for if she continues down the path of saying the ANC is using this primarily as a way to get rid of the DA, it will not gain her any support on a national level.

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13 years 1 month ago #187644 by LeeLou
The idea of total centralisation of power scares me spitless, but there are some concerns with regards to the current status that one cannot ignore.

The Constitution is NOT flawless and and assigns quite a number of responsibilities to more than one sphere of government. This has resulted in a myriad of problems in terms of mandate, whether it relates to administration or implementation matters. And believe me, it is a nightmare most of the time. Yes, I know there are many attempts in solving this, but I really have not come across anything that works. No Memoranda of Understanding/ Agreement, no Service Level Agreement and definitely no "working in the spirit of cooperate governance" (at the latter I can simply roll mine eyes.):dry:

There is also the argument about the cost of too many provincial administrations (and boy, do they cost us!!) and that resources should in stead be directed at municipal level- where implementation really takes place. It is also where most of the problems in terms of service delivery are occurring.

Lastly, I think one should guard against petty provincialism, as it can so easily result in unnecessary division and adds no value whatsoever.

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13 years 1 month ago #187691 by $Force
leelou I think your point of view makes sense in terms of what a desired outcome would be.
Streamlining the administration of the provinces without giving central govt too much power.One think that would make the whole "dissolution of provincial powers" scenario balance out, would be a "Westminister" type of system where instead of party lists, we would be able to directly elect MPs for constituencies.

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13 years 1 month ago - 13 years 1 month ago #187695 by Girl4Pmb
I have two quick questions. When it comes to the constitution, amendments can be made depending on the voting within the national assembly. How many seats does the ANC have within the national assembly?

Second question - Didn't Madagascar undergo what the ANC is 'proposing'?
Last Edit: 13 years 1 month ago by Girl4Pmb.

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